Chinese human rights lawyers don’t intend to be enemies of the authoritarian system

After local authorities in China’s Sichuan Province and Henan Province informed two Chinese human rights lawyers that their licenses were going to be revoked on Monday, Chinese human rights lawyer Xie Yanyi, who was imprisoned and had his license revoked during the “709 Mass Arrest,” said Beijing probably wants to continue its crackdown on civil society through Monday’s announcement, but human rights lawyers in China will continue to fulfill their promises to safeguard human rights unconditionally.

Question: After human rights lawyers Lu Siwei and Ren Qiuanniu were informed by provincial department of justice in Sichuan and Henan that their licenses would be revoked, what kind of message do you think the Chinese government is trying to send through the announcements?

Xie Yanyi: One thing for sure is that the decision to revoke their licenses isn’t a coincidence. The comments they had made or the conflicts that they had with authorities during trials were not the reason for their licenses to be revoked. I think there is a coordinated effort behind the decision.

It’s possible that the Chinese government wants to enforce its crackdown on civil society and human rights lawyers at the beginning of a new year. I think they want the community to know that everyone needs to obey the highest authority. It is the reflection of the Chinese Communist Party’s ideology of “unification.”

To human rights lawyers in China, they feel like the government has been trying to frame them as the government’s “opponent” since at least 2012. However, the scenario of confronting the government is intentionally created by Beijing.

Even until today, human rights lawyers in China still can’t become the government’s opponents. Lawyers are counterforces to the power of the government within the political system. They will play the role of check and balances on issues related to judicial corruption and violation of human rights. When the Chinese government views human rights lawyers as a threat to its power, I think they are intentionally trying to frame the community that way. Human rights lawyers aren’t naturally against the political system in China.

While human rights lawyers are not actively trying to confront the authoritarian system in China, the domestic development in China has triggered more realization among human rights lawyers. Members of the community realize that if they don’t have political rights, they can’t really fight for rule of law or human rights.

As a result, some people in the human rights lawyers’ community begin to transition into social activism. Maybe more people will take on these roles in the future. Realistically speaking, I’m not sure how many people have realized the importance of activism. I think the Chinese society has reached the point of “if you are not thinking about things from the wholistic perspective, it won’t be enough even if you are trying to perform well in a certain area.”

I don’t think human rights lawyers are idealists, but I think many things in reality have pushed human rights lawyers to become more idealistic.

Question: It seems like less human rights lawyers will be willing to take on sensitive human rights cases in China following the authorities’ decision to revoke the two lawyers’ licenses. Do you think this is going to shrink the space for human rights lawyers to operate in China?

Xie Yanyi: Human rights lawyers in China have faced ongoing crackdown from the government for several years, as Beijing arbitrarily destroys rule of law. Lawyers’ rights have also been taken away from them whenever the government thinks it’s appropriate to do so. In other words, there is no more room for human rights lawyers to operate under the conditions approved by Beijing.

On the other hand, human rights lawyers have never stopped resisting against the government’s encroachment of their rights. When Beijing’s crackdown becomes too severe and human rights lawyers can no longer function normally, there will be an opportunity for them to resist. The situation then becomes whenever oppression happens, that’s when human rights lawyers begin to resist. I’m not too concerned about human rights lawyers in China losing their spaces to operate, because even when the government tries to seal off all the paths for them to advance their causes, there are still natural justice.

For example, while some cases are viewed as sensitive by outsiders, the reality is that nothing in China is insensitive. It’s hard for human rights lawyers to determine which case is more sensitive, because in our eyes, nothing is sensitive. We evaluate everything based on the law.

The advantages that human rights lawyers have are their knowledge in law, because they have gone through the necessary trainings within the legal profession. At the same time, there are always needs to safeguard rights in this society, because people always need to protect their own freedom or rights. Even if the Chinese government wants to remove the entire community of human rights lawyers, does that mean we will no longer be able to speak up?

Demands for rights and respect can’t be suppressed. Based on the authoritarian logic, the Chinese government clearly wants to suppress the space for human rights lawyers to operate. However, the development of the society and history don’t follow the way that authoritarian logic operates.

Question: In an interview on Monday, Chinese human rights lawyer Yu Wensheng’s wife Xu Yan said after many human rights lawyers lost their licenses, they need to deal with the problem of how to maintain their livelihood. Based on your personal experience, how do human rights lawyers continue their career after they lost their licenses?

Xie Yanyi: Having their licenses revoked is a very cruel thing for many human rights lawyers in China. In order to survive as a lawyer, they need to have professional skills, professional attitudes, and experiences defending human rights.

While some human rights lawyers may no longer be “lawyers” in the government’s definition once they lost their licenses, they actually will have opportunities to expand the space for professional development. I always believe that the best way to survive for anyone is to try their best. They need to be responsible to themselves and they need to offer some kind of service to others and society.

Even if the government tries to seal off all the path for human rights lawyers to develop professionally, I don’t think the whole thing is going to develop based on the government’s plan. The really competent lawyers might even be able to create opportunities out of the challenges.

Question: A new trend is emerging from several sensitive human rights cases in China recently. In some trials, the appeals court would hand down the ruling without properly running through the entire legal process. As the Chinese government seems to have full control of the legal system, how can human rights lawyer still try to safeguard rule of law in China?

Xie Yanyi: As we can no longer let the state of rule of law keep deteriorating in China, human rights lawyers will unconditionally try to defend rule of law. We will not avoid the challenges we face, and this includes all kinds of humanitarian crises and injustice. We will face the reality and I believe many human rights lawyers are willing to take up the responsibility of defending human rights.

On the one hand, we will still use existing methods to defend human rights. At the public level, we will try to cooperate with one another on certain issues. We will not back down and our resistance will not stop here.

I still believe that a China that respects human rights, peace, democracy and rule of law is still the shared vision among many Chinese people. We will try to send kind messages to those in power and we will try to keep reporting about facts in order to enlighten more people.

I want to emphasize again that human rights lawyers are generally well-intentioned and genuine, and we are not trying to embrace an ideology that’s built upon confrontation. We want to use proper and legal ways to facilitate the transition of the Chinese society while fulfilling the protection of human rights and rule of law. We will not back down, we will not slow down and we will continue to fight for this vision.

This interview was first published in Mandarin on DW’s Chinese website.